Oops -- posted on the wrong thread.
The testimony of 'ex-atheists' is particularly amusing (and gobbled up by the faithful - "see? that's what atheists are like, by their own account!"). 'I tried cheating, lying, stealing and murde...
Yes, I always encourage such Christians to stick with it. Freedom from religious restraint is not for everybody. It's a wonder my kids survived to adulthood.
keiths: At UD, http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/whats-wrong-with-theistic-objective-moralityin-60-seconds/comment-page-8/#comment-63658
At UD, OldArmy94 writes:
If I ...
William, No response to this and
I have shown that moral subjectivism leads to the claimed logical consequences to my satisfaction. Some...
Ah, one can deny until one is blue in the face that one acts as if OM is true, but certain people know better! You don't know your own minds, you blinkered materialists.
William,
As I have often said, it doesn’t matter if moral objectivism is true or not because we act and must act as if it is true anyway.Your logic skills are f...
William, When you speak of "self-evident truths" (as you have done many, many times) you are speaking of things that are a) self-evident, and b) true. Something that is true cannot be false. Ther...
William J. Murray: and (2) serves as a logically consistent foundation for how we actually behave an...
keiths said:
1. It conflicts with your repeated assertion that certain things (the so-called “self-evident moral truths”) actually are objectively immoral.Context, k...
Then you’re just making an (unsound) argument from consequences: that although we have no reason to think that our consciences give us reliable access to an objective morality, we m...
keiths: William, Then you’re just making an (unsound) argument from consequences: that although we...
William,
Whether or not we have any “reliable” means of detecting and/or correcting for “moral illusions” is irrelevant to whether or not we have sound justification, indeed a...
I argued above that — assuming objective morality exists — we have no reliable means of detecting and correcting for “moral illusions”. If you think my argument is mistaken, t...
keiths:
There are good reasons to think that your sense of sight gives you access to an objective world out there. Not so with your conscience.William:
Sure ...
KN, to Neil:
The Gavagai thought-experiment is supposed to show us that we have no choice but to use our own conceptual framework when making sense of the utterances of people who don...
Neil Rickert: I’d say that inferential role has to do with reference, rather than meaning. Isn’t...
keiths said:
I’m not telling you what your assumptions are. I’m explaining why they aren’t equally justified.I didn't claim the assumptions were equally justifi...
What, you mean like you telling me what I really think?As far as I know, I've never told anyone what they really think.
“When Martin Luther King argued that segregation was unjust, he did so by appealing to one set of norms (moral norms) against another (legal norms).” – KN He did so by appeal to the divine ...
William J. Murray: Nothing is quite as amusing as keiths’ telling others what their assumptions ar...
William, I'm not telling you what your assumptions are. I'm explaining why they aren't equally justified. There are good reasons to think that your sense of sight gives you access to an objective...
William J. Murray: keiths said: Nothing is quite as amusing as keiths’ telling others what their a...
keiths said:
It’s not the same, as I explained to you last year:Nothing is quite as amusing as keiths' telling others what their assumptions are and are not.
William,
I’m not assuming my moral sense is objective; I’m assuming that the information it provides me comes from an objectively-existent commodity. I make the same assumption wi...
“When Martin Luther King argued that segregation was unjust, he did so by appealing to one set of norms (moral norms) against another (legal norms).” – KN He did so by appeal to the divine ...
William J. Murray: I’m assuming that the information it provides me comes from an objectively-exis...
Keiths said:
Each of you is consulting his subjective sense of morality. The difference is that Allan acknowledges the subjectivity while you don’t.All of our sensory ...
Richardthughes:[keiths said: phoodoo, Do you dispute what I said about Islamic morality...
keiths: phoodoo, Do you dispute what I said about Islamic morality?He hasn't read the...
phoodoo, Do you dispute what I said about Islamic morality?
keiths, You don't know much about the Muslim faith.
phoodoo:
Thus, when the subjectivists claims that by their definition, one can believe that to kill one million Jews can be just as moral as someone else deciding to help feed the poo...
KN,
From this, it sounds to me as if you’re using “objective” to mean something like “accessible from a third-person perspective”. So a sociologist could look at a community...
Kantian Naturalist, Kn, I think you are correct about comparing morals to language. In language there is a universal truth, and that i...
Kantian Naturalist: On the Sellars/Brandom line I’m urging, meanings are social in the following s...
Neil Rickert, Ok, now I need to go back and read Putnam again! On the Sellars/Brandom line I'm urging, meanings are social in the foll...
Kantian Naturalist: I mean, the meaning of words is, I think, pretty strongly constrained by norms �...
Neil Rickert, Meaning is only weakly influenced by norms? *jaw drops* I mean, the meaning of words is, I think, pretty strongly constr...
keiths: The existence of norms (and languages) is an objective fact. The content of those norms can ...
Kantian Naturalist:... , and I don’t think that linguistic meaning is subjective.I h...
KN,
My main objection to the idea that “morality is subjective” is that I think there’s something basically right about the analogy between language and morality, and I don’t ...
I think the parallels with language are fair. I have tried to be clear that the version of 'objective' I am opposing is that outside human heads, not that embodied by collective genetic and cultu...
Kantian Naturalist: My main objection to the idea that “morality is subjective” is that I think ...
My main objection to the idea that "morality is subjective" is that I think there's something basically right about the analogy between language and morality, and I don't think that linguistic me...
William,
Applying the term “moral landscape” doesn’t magically change the nature of what you are doing (categorically under subjectivism) to the nature of what I am doing (categ...
So you don’t think people should act according to their moral principles, they should ignore their morals and b...
More equivocation. If all you are “pointing at” (categorically) is the other person’s presumed su...