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- Feed Preview LWN: Comments on "The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate"
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
For the record, the problem with dracut was that it has a systemd 'generator' which only creates the important files the first time it is run: rootfs-generator.sh When you "systemctl daemon-re...
Nobody expects the spanish plonk squad!
Ah, so this is 'newer udev will require a bleeding-edge kernel yet again', not 'we're going to break everyone using older udev and force them to upgrade'. So I'm not as annoyed as I might be, an...
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
Is this it? https://github.com/diwic/dbus-rs
Nobody expects the spanish plonk squad!
It's backwards. My understanding: the kernel and udev currently communicate over netlink. Newer udev will only talk over kdbus (netlink isn't going away in the kernel) and kdbus requires some us...
Nobody expects the spanish plonk squad!
Sorry, last I encountered it, udev was userspace, right? And there are other things that do what udev does (Gentoo's fork, eudev, perhaps mdev?). That makes this a userspace/kernel ABI in my eye...
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
> No one is expected to port systemd to other platforms, because it's > not expected at all! It would be more appropriate to say that (a) the systemd developers don't see the po...
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
You did not refute a single point I made. I rest my case. Systemd proponents (at least, some of these vocal ones) say one thing, expect another, and then criticize when people decline to waste t...
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
> I think there's no point in continuing this discussion with you. Changing the subject, ignoring facts, moving the goalposts, focusing on strawmen...but what of the truth? You're one to talk...
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
> Yeah, because one is a network-facing daemon that must conform to well-established protocol specifications in order to be of any use, and the other is operating system plumbing that tries to t...
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
> If cgroups are required to be in the kernel, but you can operate without using any controllers (as was stated in some thread on lwn in the last few days), then refusing to boot when cgroups ar...
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
given that the scope of systemd is not defined, how long for it to settle down? it could be a couple of decades. Part of what people aren't liking is the dependence on linux-only features with...
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
Systemd is changing quickly because it is a new project (compared to OpenSSH, anyway). It will eventually settle down and evolve at a much slower rate, at which point a “portable” version ma...
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
> There certainly is such a reason: the ways in which systemd and OpenSSH are developed are a world apart. Yeah, because one is a network-facing daemon that must conform to well-established pr...
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
There certainly is such a reason: the ways in which systemd and OpenSSH are developed are a world apart. OpenSSH changes slowly, valuing stability and predictability and correctness, actively ex...
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
Many people don't seem to find systemd compelling but they're still outraged that portability isn't an important goal of the project so it won't run everywhere right off the bat. This is a bit i...
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
I for one have never claimed systemd's advantage being fast boot, it is that it gives sane process management. That is even much more relevant on servers that should run continuously for months, ...
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
The BSD OpenSSH people don't accept portability patches, either – the portable version is maintained by a different team in a separate repository. Nobody seems to mind much. There is no partic...
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
I remember those days, but you only go to that sort of effort if you _really_ want the functionality provided and it's worth maintaining a fork. For many people, systemd just isn't that compel...
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
OK, I think it's fair to say we've gone pretty far off topic at this point; maybe it's time to close this discussion down or find a more suitable forum for it?
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
Remember the days when much stuff for Linux was developed in/through non-vanilla kernel trees, and Alan Cox' tree was the one most bleeding edge hackers followed? Could set up a git tree and merg...
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
why would someone waste time creating such patches when the project has already stated that they won't accept them?"
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
or he could just steal what he needs from rich and/or exploitative jerks. what's that you say? you want him to respect and the government to protect and enforce YOUR property rights? WTF shoul...
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
> The problem is that he explicitly refuses to even accept patches from others to that end. No. That would only be a problem if: a) Such patches to make systemd work on other OSes actually ex...
Nobody expects the spanish plonk squad!
> And exploring the various technical alternatives is *much* more interesting than trying to convert systemd believers. I don't think anyone is trying to convert systemd believers to prefer an...
Nobody expects the spanish plonk squad!
Thank you for putting the time and effort into an exemplary post. I agree we must move forward but respectfully disagree on the details. The opportunity for preventing harm to Debian has passe...
Nobody expects the spanish plonk squad!
>It has been fascinating watching you echo each other but why should any of us experienced software professionals waste LWN bandwidth responding to you? The short version: because failing to r...
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
So what should the hypothetical libertarian capitalist do then? Not offer the man a job at all? Well, no, that won't do, because then the poor man is still homeless and hungry and out of work....
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
What a petty comment. You sound as if you want systemd dissenters to be miserable, as if they did something to harm you and you want to see them suffer in return. This kind of sore-winner attitu...
Nobody expects the spanish plonk squad!
As I understand, nobody is going to rip off the netlink API from the kernel. They simply plan to rip it from udev. Your old boot system will still work.
Nobody expects the spanish plonk squad!
> Hence my question whether anything outside of udev uses it (and Gentoo's udev fork doesn't really count). Will your proposed kernel changes break eudev?
Nobody expects the spanish plonk squad!
You still don't get it. Incompatible changes in udev did happen. _Exactly_ because somebody thought that there is such a thing as application-private kernel API. And it was a fucking disaster. ...
Nobody expects the spanish plonk squad!
> well, if it's used by things outside of udev, then it's an > "external API", and since LP is calling out that Gentoo is going to > have to change things as a res...
Nobody expects the spanish plonk squad!
well, if it's used by things outside of udev, then it's an "external API", and since LP is calling out that Gentoo is going to have to change things as a result, it sure seems like things other ...
Nobody expects the spanish plonk squad!
Is udev's netlink-based communication protocol actually part of an "external API" of udev? Or is it essentially an internal implementation choice, the sort of thing a kernel developer would feel...
Nobody expects the spanish plonk squad!
> However, the original plonker up there only came, plonked, and then vanished. SD believers have been ad-homineming the post you refer to as a plonk for more than two weeks now without actual...
Nobody expects the spanish plonk squad!
>> The accuracy of the principled argument is made quite clear by LP's "wakeup call" to Gentoo about udev. Whether or not they are actively trying to take a dominant position in the Linux "ecosy...
The Grumpy Editor's guide to surviving the systemd debate
I wouldn't bet even on that. Or on any specific gender, for that matter. About the only thing obvious about that wankstain is that it's really, really desperate for attention. Of any kind. Proof...
Nobody expects the spanish plonk squad!
> Another possibility is a simple lack of patience. Well, debian was patient -- and therefore skipped the whole upstart dead end. At some point the advantages of the new system outweigh the de...
Nobody expects the spanish plonk squad!
>(...) it gives the plonk-ee at least the courtesy of knowing they've gone off-course far enough to provoke such a reaction, (...) However, the original plonker up there only came, plonked, an...
Nobody expects the spanish plonk squad!
> In contrast, to "face someone down and tell them why they've screwed up badly" would mean engaging in a rational discussion. And they feel like this has been done already with no change what...